- The usual exciting point of the auction is the strange prices. For the art community, apart from access to those prices, it is important to set a starting price. What is the process by which a young artist entering the auction for the first time gets prices either higher or lower than what society expects? What does the auction about each artist go through to reach that price?

Now some are clear, like the masters, but some are not, some are anonymous in pricing.

- This is our hard work. Not only is it difficult to know the price of an artist's work, especially an artist who has not had much presence in the market before, but many later cite the Tehran auction of prices, and one mistake can spread throughout the art community, and we are aware of this sensitivity. Therefore, we are very careful about price expertise. We are the most official pricing authority for artworks in the country and therefore we try to have arguments from expert opinion for every price offer. Including the fact that we refer to the previous and official sales of the artist. If the artist’s artwork has been in an auction, its results can be cited. If it has never been auctioned, we refer to the artworks selling price in the galleries. Sometimes artists tell us that They had sold their works at high prices at home or in their personal studio. Those prices are not official to us and we can not accept them. Even if we believe that such a sale is true and the artist is honest, we suppose that we can not convince others. That is why we insist that if someone wants to come to the auction, it should be based on the officially purchased prices, not the prices that the artist suggests in comparing his works with similar artists’ works.

And this is the source of disagreement with some artists who are not very interested in presenting their works at the Tehran auction. Important artists who the Tehran auction will certainly be proud to present their works, but they offer high prices while there is no official source to prove these figures and the artist insists on his offered price, sayin: I have sold artworks at this price in my studio. Artists whose works are not as good as mine are selling their artworks at a high price. In comparison to them and my previous sales at my house, my works should be sold at higher prices”. This is not acceptable because it can not be the basis for an expert opinion. Those artists also prefer not to put their work up for auction, because they believe the Tehran auction offers a lower price for their work, than what they want. However, we must keep in mind that the nature of our work is a secondary market and, of course, there must be a primary market. There are very few exceptions that can be auctioned directly without presenting in primary market. This includes premier artists. For example, for some of Kamal al-Mulk's students, whose works are neither presented in galleries nor sold at auctions. If their works are to be auctioned for the first time, we can deduct the price of  other Kamal al-Mulk students’ artworks, whose works are better, or the works of artists with the same style belonging to the same generation, and offer a price for Tehran auction with caution which is naturally low. These are very difficult cases that make price expertise hard. But after our initial offer, it becomes easier. If that work was sold at a high price, it could be the basis for pricing works in future auctions. In response to another part of your question that may be of interest to many, sometimes at auction, the price of an artist's work rises unexpectedly. If we present a similar work by that artist next time, we will not offer it in proportion to the risen price, but we will increase it by one or two steps and ultimately three steps. For example, if we offer fifty million tomans for an artwork, and then it reaches the price of six hundred or seven hundred million in an exciting auction, next time we will not price it based on six hundred or seven hundred million tomans. We will offer sixty, seventy, or at most eighty million tomans. This question might be raised by that artist or possibly the collectors, who probably have works by this artist: “his works were sold at a high price in the previous auction, but why is the presale estimate low again?”. We declare that this is how auctions operate around the world. We add another step, which becomes three steps together, because of the increase of price in one, the dramatic increase in two steps, and because the artist is presenting a more important or larger work this time. We can add two, three or four steps. That these few steps do not even bring the work to double the price, let alone the multiples that are intended by collectors. Therefore, that artist will no longer be willing to auction his work, because he claims that his works are more expensive while the presale estimate has increased slightly. Thus the artist market will be blocked.

- So this means a sudden price increase can be to the detriment of the artist?

-Yes, it can be completely to the detriment of the artist, as well as to the detriment of the person who bought the work at a high price. He has bought the work of an artist at a high price in an emotional state. Imagine that we had offered fifty million tomans but he bought it for four hundred millions. But next time we offer seventy or eighty million works by that artist, that person thinks that he has bought the work at a very high price. And a work that is more or less similar has been priced at eighty million. Yes, these emotional outbursts  can be to the detriment of the artist and the collectors who have bought those artworks. Of course, if there is more than one increase in prices of an artist’s works, then we will raise the price step by step. But we always say that this kind of increase can not affect us much in evaluation. Conversely, sometimes an artist does a very good job at auctions, but by chance no bids, or just one person does, and the work sells at the same minimum estimate. Based on that, we do not reduce the price of the artist's work once Assuming that maybe this time the audience was not specific and the next auction will be successful. For instance, many prominent figures of Iranian art, such as Sohrab Sepehri, Hossein Zandehroudi and Parviz Tanavoli, Mohammad Ehsaei and others who are the leaders of Iranian art in the overseas market, have often not sold their works in various auctions. But no one thinks that by not selling once or twice, the price of their works should decrease. Works by artists like Picasso and Matisse have not been sold many times in international auctions, and this does not mean that the price of their works is declining. Unless this happens over and over again. Therefore, we do not pay much attention to the emotional behaviors for or against the artworks. Rather, we follow the logic of our expertise in pricing.

- Another thing that not only the Tehran auction, but all auctions may suffer from, is that when works of a certain style achieves a strange price increase, it can give direction to other artists, for example, it can be said that in the Iranian market, calligraphy has had loyal customers for a long time. Does this create young artists a path that if they want to be successful in the market they have to follow this style? Does it create a space for the market and young artists?

- I can not deny it. To some extent, this is inevitable. As a young artist, when you look at auctions and see that a certain type of work is selling well, and perhaps it is very important for you to sell your work, you are naturally impressed and try to create works in that direction hoping that you will probably sell better. This is a phenomenon that occurs all over the world and can be considered as negative or even positive effects of the market. It is not necessarily a negative thing for an artist to try to create work in the style of a successful artist. Especially in the contemporary period when artists are influenced by each other and artists are not recommended to mere innovation  and are more encouraged by the semantic depth of the work. So the artist can create a work similar to the work of other artists, and this may cause his work to prosper or stagnate. But auctions do not inherently have such a policy. Not only the Tehran auction, but all the auctions in the world do not seek to promote one type of art too much. They seek diversity rather than assimilation! Because the buyers of the works are diverse! No auction seeks to emphasize a particular genre or style and advise artists to do so. Because if a successful art style or stream is to be imitated by countless people, its success will naturally be overshadowed. once an artist's work is noticed because of its uniqueness, and when ten other people  work like him, it is no longer unique. Therefore, no auction sees any benefit in recommending following each other. This is something that may happen as a result of following some artists, but it is by no means a market recommendation and an auction preference. It is just a viewpoint that some have because in our art community there are not many different sources for inspiration, there is not much room for criticism and analysis, and there is not much opportunity to evaluate works of art and make recommendations. Our education system often tends to issue certificates. There is not much opportunity for ideas and exchanges, and in the field of culture and art we do not see all kinds of seminars, conferences and review meetings. So a young artist is paying attention to the auction because he can not find inspiration from anywhere else.

- Mr Sami azar, I really want to reach a point by asking this question. When the market of a field grows and the attention is focused on it, especially in art, where at least the mode of creating a work of art is not to produce a product or commodity. But this market creates the atmosphere that it becomes a commodity, and this commodification may devalue the artworks’ content. Have you ever worried that with the auction and the growth of the art market in general, the creation of artworks will swerve and the content that it is supposed to represent will be focused on commodification and the purely financial aspect of the story?

- I personally believe that art is a commodity. Beyond art, the idea is a commodity, the thought is a commodity. Nowadays, even mysticism is a commodity, to the point that some people do business with the mystics and mystical worlds. Even religion has become a commodity. Some people do business with religion all over the world and make a profit. In an era when the age of ideologies is over and there is doubt on authenticity of everything, we have to say that it is better to accept this fact, that the work of art, which is the last thing that can be considered a commodity, should adapt itself to the new conditions.

There are artists who do not want their artwork to be considered a commodity, and they may insist on this belief for many years, even a lifetime.

- A large part of the critics, not only the Tehran auction, but the art market as a whole, look at it from this perspective.

- Yes, some people have this point of view and there is no problem. Of course, the works of prominent artists become commodities after their deaths, and perhaps their avoidance of commoditization of art later becomes in favor of commodification of most of their works. Because it makes those artists legends who lived in poverty and deprivation, and so they are great artists, and their works can now be multiplied in value. Just like a product that you are reluctant to sell for a while and it naturally becomes scarce and then when you want to sell it, it will probably find a lot of customers. And so these resistances will eventually end up in favor of becoming commodity.

- It does not mean anti-commodity!

- No, it is commodification. But follows a long-term plan. We are no longer living in the Van Gogh era. Van Gogh would definitely sell his work if people wanted to buy his work. There was no one to buy! He found only one customer and sold only one work. If there were more customers, he would sell more works. But today, the legend of the artist, who lived in poverty and did not sell a work, has helped to increase its price so much that Van Gogh's works are being sold at higher prices than his fellow painters, who may be as good as him. Now the legend of an artist who never sold a work will definitely help to make his art more precious. Thus, some are consciously or unconsciously follow a strategic path which is resisting the commodification of art so that their work becomes a more significant commodity in the future. We know artists who rarely sold works until old age, simply because there were no customers for their work; Not that there were too many customers and they avoided it. Thus, in old age, with the development of the market, they got a flood of customers, and suddenly, at old age or after their death, their works reached a very high price, and therefore the commodification of their works definitely happened. But late. Commodification for prominent artists is slow but sure!

- So you think it should happen.

- I definitely think it's happening. But we have to think about the managing the commodification of art and prevent its harms and make good use of its benefits to develop art. If art becomes valuable, related occupations also become valuable, Such as art criticism, art education, publishing art books, research and analysis on art. If art becomes valuable, it is worthwhile to set up a gallery and introduce the works of artists at a considerable cost. If more works are introduced, more people become interested in art, and more artists see a better future ahead of themselves, Thus art develops.

- And then it's worth the pay for analyzing the art.

- Yes, artistic books will be translated and written, art magazines will be created. Art schools will be established with expanded interests to respond to the younger generation, and more artists will emerge, and a larger and more thriving art community will emerge. Thus, commodification can have positive effects on the development of art, but it is not far from its negative effects. In my opinion, it is better to control the negative effects of commodification of art rather than guarding against it. The government institutions have a very crucial role here in identifying and carefully examining the negative points-not the ones that are only unpleasant for some people because it does not benefit them, by carefully examining them based on the opinion of experts and prominent artists. Try to minimize the negatives and maximize the positive ones. This is what needs to be done. Many artists who make anti-market or anti-commodification gestures, present their work in galleries at very high prices. That is another type of market. Do those who oppose the market never want to sell their works? I do not know such a person. They actually want their work to be sold in the way they like or in the kind of market they like. For example, some artists prefer to sell their work at home. A secret and unrecognizable market, where it is never known to others what the deal was finally done and whether the alleged figure really happened! They prefer to sell in private markets. I also know buyers who prefer to buy an artist's work in his studio and in a private and through a friendly relationship with the artist. And they do not hesitate that the artist may sell the work at a higher price than the real price. They just tend to buy privately. They like a traditional market. Like old and antique items that some people like to buy from a dealer. They feel that a secret purchase is more exciting for them, than a purchase from where the work on the wall is properly presented and has a formal price, and everyone is watching. Or in a much more formal and modern way, like an auction in which works are introduced and are universally recognizable, and the whole world can find out through the site at what price this work is presented and with what specifications. A clear competition, to participate in the auction in front of a large crowd and buy that work. Most people prefer to sell or buy artwork in this modern and competitive way. But there are those who prefer to sell privately in a traditional and non-competitive way.

In my opinion, the corruption and the negative and even destructive aspects of the private sale of an artwork are much more than the defects of its public and official sale. We are being severely criticized and that is good for us. We may get tired sometimes, but in the end, it forces us to correct, and we have to go in the direction of responding to criticism. we cannot be too indifferent toward the objections and criticisms. we have to reform ourselves.

This is a feature of a transparent and modern market. And the nature of the hidden market, which moves towards uncontrollable, unreliable, unappreciable and incorrigible methods, in my view, is a scourge. It may be very healthy in some cases, but in many cases it is not. In my opinion, the official strategy of the art community and the government should be to make all markets, including the art market, public, transparent, critical and reformable. And invite everyone to accept the official market and to fix it if there are any flaws. We should not go against the auction, and sell the artworks in our own home or display them in a private gallery which is similar to selling at home.

- Mr. Sami azar, according to your words, you have faced a lot of criticism in this matter! Were there any criticisms that you yourself knew, but could not reform? I would like to know more. What is Mr. Sami Azar's criticism of his own auction that he can not reform or eliminate regarding the Iranian mechanism or with the existing coordinates?

- Well, there are several problems in the Tehran auction, and I confirm them. Unfortunately, we have not been able to fix them so far and they may not be easy to fix. There are some drawbacks for other auctions as well. Among other things, in every auction, there are a number of influential people who are sometimes buyers of the auction and therefore have power, and sometimes prominent artists or there influential gallery owners who have recommendations for works while we do not believe in those works and do not consider that artist or that work at the auction level. In terms of price, you can resist to some extent. The pressure on the Tehran auction to accept some artworks are mostly related to an artist, and sometimes in relation to the price, but it is more about the artist who, in our opinion, should not participate in the auction and In my opinion, the artwork has no place in the Tehran auction. However, we have to keep these people who have a crucial role in the success of the auction satisfied. The success of the whole auction depends on the people who support us and have important responsibilities in the art community, those who have power and respect, and those who are the buyers of artworks and their money. And they should be satisfied. If one of them gives advice about an artist, we first try to persuade him that the artist is not eligible, but if he insists, we have to accept. I have been Christie's consultant for many years and I often saw works of Iranian artists presented there that I did not know myself. I asked them “where did you get these works from? This artist is unknown in his hometown, how could he be presented at the Christie's auction?” They also said that some collector, whose name I was not often told, had recommended this to us. Or we had to accept it beside significant work. They had a rule, that if someone suggested a top knot, a very significant work, they would have to accept one or two other artworks which they would not naturally accept. This happens in all auctions. We cannot ignore the factors influencing the auction, the influence of those who can guarantee the success of the auction from an economic, political or cultural point of view. Therefore, we accept their advice. We accept a number of artworks, which in my opinion is ultimately ten percent of the works, and we believe should not be auctioned. And there are always people who criticize us. Especially the artists who are sure about their eligibility while are not accepted, mentioning the fact asking how they are not accepted. We accept these criticisms; these are some of our drawbacks. We try to reduce these cases to some extent, but we may not be able to easily delete them for good. Sometimes there are complaints about the pricing of works. For example, we cannot easily sell a great artist’s work for more than one hundred million tomans, while young artists, whose work is not very prominent in our opinion, are sold at higher price. This is partly due to the taste of the market that is imposed by some collectors. The market is ruthless. The market must be free, and in this freedom a not-so-worthy work in terms of art criticism may achieve great success. great artists, who also have an important place in our art history, may not reach even to much lower figures. There is injustice. The prices at the auction are not fair to an art expert, including my colleagues. Maybe the international level is the same. This is a fact that is largely rooted from the taste of buyers. This is a flaw in our system and we accept it. And we may not be able to easily fix this problem. There is also injustice in other proportions of artists. Including the ratio of men to women. We try very hard to increase the presence of female artists, still, there are more male artists compared to female artists. We are trying very hard to increase the number of female artists, yet this ratio does not fit with the reality of our art community. Also the ratio of Tehranian artists to other cities. A large percentage of our artists are from Tehran. And unfortunately, in the whole art market, this opportunity has been taken away from other artists.

- The same thing happens in galleries.

- Yes, it happens in our galleries as well. But we are aware of these drawbacks. We try to mitigate these injustices that we acknowledge as much as possible, if we can. There are other criticisms of the auction. of the auction, of the auction announcements and more.

- Even the auctioneer!

- yes! Even criticism of the auctioneer! Criticisms can also be leveled against the auctioneer. We can accept it to some extent.

Do foreign auctioneers also face this challenge?

- Much less than us! They have trained auctioneers, but we have not been able to train good ones. Auctioning has more complexities than what people see from outside. This is not a simple performance in the way other performers do. It requires precise calculations of intervals…

- In foreign auctions, although this also happens, it seems that there is an unwritten and perhaps written law that when a gallery puts a work up at auction, it can not buy it itself.

- The auction itself?

- the gallery which has introduced the work to the auction. It is as if he wants to raise the price of that work or artist with this trick. This is happening at the Tehran auction, and some critics say the auction goes along with it. Some say no, this is something the auctioneer is unaware of. This happens in foreign auctions. Are there any bans on this issue at those auctions?

- Yes! This ban is everywhere in the world. No one can bid on a work that is his own or attributed to him. If you go to the Tehran auction, you will see that there is a clause in the Tehran auction registration stating that you cannot bid for a work that belongs to you or those related to you. You have no right to do that. This is considered as corruption. Therefore, the Tehran auction always advises the galleries or collectors who have submitted works and at the same time want to buy works that you should not bid for the work that belongs to you or we are completely aware that it belongs to you. But this is happening beyond our control. In this way, you do not bid for the work that you introduced, but your friend does. And this person, who we know is your friend, is raising the price. We are seriously trying to stop this.

- Can this have a mechanism at all?

- Yes! We finally find out. In ninety-nine percent of cases, we find out that you did not directly participate in the auction of your own work, but that people affiliated with you did so on your behalf. We find out who those friends are. Did these people just bid for the works that belong to you or they wanted the works as well? Have these people been to the previous auctions or not? Did you represent those works or other identified people did? We have mechanisms to find out if those people did it on your behalf or, offered a price for themselves. If we assume that these people did this on your behalf, we will not normally allow you or that person to participate in the auction. Our advice is always not to do this. But we know that some people do it against our will, and this, of course, happens in all the auctions around the world. I have seen such thing at Christie's and Sotheby's auctions, where people did not bid for works with the intention of buying them but with the aim of Raising the price ..Raising the artist's price or preventing the work from not being sold at auction. We are talking about investments, and negligence may not only be to the detriment of the artist, but also to the detriment of those who have spent money to buy the works of that artist. As a result, some people come and do it out of the auctioneer's sight, which should decrease as we go along.

- Mr. sami azar my last question is that this institution that holds the auction is very dependent on you. Do you think you have any procedure for the auction’s continuation and stability? That this auction can continue with a specific mechanism? Even with or without Mr. Sami Azar?

- Of course, now my colleagues are very experienced ...

- Yes, but you play a very crucial role.

- Some of my personality traits are not related to my abilities, skills and knowledge so that I can pass on to others. Among other things, I have a background in the art community and it has created a reputation for me. The respect and kindness of my colleagues has created a situation for me that may not be transferable to anyone else. But I dedicate my expertise and skills not only to those around me but to anyone who wants to use them. So I'm willing to help anyone that comes to me with everything I have learnt. But whether he can play my role later or not, it remains to be seen, maybe he will be able to do better than me.

- Do you think it is possible to build an institution that will make this auction more sustainable and provide a long-term sustainability in the art market?

- The best institution is to create a competitor for the Tehran auction; Like everywhere in the world. We welcome competitors. Others will hold an auction and we will have to try to compete with them, and they will have to fill some parts of the market gap. They also own part of the market’s profits and hear some of the complaints and insults. All expectations of us can later be divided into two. In general, there is a possibility of success through competition, there is a possibility of promotion, development and evolution. But the fact that the Tehran auction is in a non-competitive environment is detrimental in the long run. You may think that we are happy that we are the only auctioneer in the market, but I personally do not think so. Especially as I get closer to my retirement. I consider myself a market retiree and I think I should leave the whole market and not just the auction. But I think the existence of another auction next to the Tehran auction in the future guarantees the success of the Tehran auction. This will make the Tehran auction make better use of its experience, facilities and energy and be more successful in the future. I think most of the pressure on our institute and on me personally is because we are the sole auctioneer and major source of the market, and all eyes are on us. If someone cannot enter the auction, he may desperately pay attention to some of the unjust criticisms leveled at us. But if the atmosphere becomes more reasonable and balanced and more chances arise through other auctions, I think the situation will be better for us as well.

- Do you think Iran Market has the potential for several auctions?

- Yes, definitely. Because not only does each auction introduce a set of artists, it also introduces a new buyer to the market. Some old gallery owners say that the situation is not good and a new gallery is being established every day, and although the new gallery owners have money and motivation, they do not have the experience and expertise and may create a toxic atmosphere. But I myself am very optimistic about the establishment of galleries every day. First of all, this is very good news, because the market is growing and that is why these people tend to invest in this thriving market. Secondly, everyone is sending buyers, collectors and capitalists to the art community and the art economy to make the art economy stronger. Finally, older galleries can take advantage of the stronger market that emerges. This new environment has become much more competitive where new, energetic galleries with remarkable financial abilities have emerged. In the past, Tehran had less than a dozen galleries, which were often friendly and were not competitors. They had limited sales but the atmosphere was not very competitive. Everyone was friends and they met regularly and even had house parties. Now the number of galleries has increased a lot. Active galleries are probably nearly ten times larger than they were a decade ago. The atmosphere has become very competitive and therefore there are no such friendships, because in another serious and competitive atmosphere, one cannot expect the emotional relationships that existed twenty years ago. Although some are dissatisfied, I see these as signs of development and growth. When we are witnessing a recession in countless parts of the country, visual art is the only growing part that has all the indicators positive showing evolution and progress. Only the negative indicators refer to the whole economy of the country. what refers to the art market in particular, and not its impact on the overall monetary and economic situation of the country, is all positive and hopeful. I think that is why in our current situation witnessing a recession in all areas, a gallery is being established every day and the price of works is increasing. The Tehran auction is holding its 15th auction happily and full of hope. With much higher total proceeds than before.

- In the decade leading up to the revolution,between 1969 to 1979, events such as contemporary art took place, which shook the art market and created a current in modern art.

• In which decade?
• In the decade leading up to the revolution.
• Oh okay, that means 70s.
• Exactly in the early 70s. In the 90s, with your presence, this shock was created again. When we look at these two periods, and the growth that has taken place today, I think your role and the friends who were close to you is a crucial one.

- Thank you for your kindness. But let me make one point in this comparison! It was the time of historical prosperity for the Iranian economy.

- Exactly and this period…

- And the present moment is the time of the historical recession of Iran's economy. We are getting good results in the worst situations. But in the early 70s, as you say, the indicators were positive in all parts. Many people were making huge economic profits, and the government had a lot of oil dollars. Very little of this money overflowed into the art community, and some artists benefited. But now no money or subsidies are spent by the government to support art and the art market. Practically none…

- Maybe this is even in the interest of the art market!

- Maybe it will be in the interest of the art market. Yes, it is! Because the most independent cultural current in this country is the visual arts. Cinema relies heavily on government support, theater depends on government money, and government sponsorships, as does music. As well as literature and so on. The publishing industry also relies heavily on government subsidies. But for the visual arts, this support is almost zero.

- As you say, in spite of all this support from the government, even during the pandemic, the visual arts flourished even more while the other fields were shuttered.

- Yes! Cinemas, theaters and even music were shuttered. But during the pandemic, the visual arts and galleries were open, and sales were perhaps the same as before. The Tehran auction has been held in this period with all the hardships. I hope the 15th auction will be held successfully.

- Good job.

-Thank you

-Thank you.